GRANGETOWN IN TIMES PAST
St Marys School
Mick Traynor - Boer War Recruit + Others
Streets and Buildings
World War One 1914 -18
Parish, Priests and Processions
Street Stories + Characters
1925 Ladies Parish Outing + More
A Tale from the Duckie + other stories
World War Two 1939 - 45
Messages from Home & Abroad
Shops and Shopkeepers
The World of Work
Upstairs and Downstairs...
The Board School
Pochin Road Infants School
Leisure & Sports
Grangetown Boys' Club
Sir Wm Worsley School
Maps, Plans & Aerial Photos
St Peter's Senior School
St Matthew's Parish
Eston Grammar School
Trolley Buses TRTB
Grangetown Methodist Church
Contact Information for Grangetown in Times Past
Links for Grangetown in Times Past
Michael McLoughlin of Australia
I remember Canon Nolan and Kitty Dooley
Hi John .
On looking at the photographs of some of the priests at Grangetown-I have noticed the above cleric's name. James .J. Nolan must have transferred to South Bank Parish after Grangetown ?
I say this because he-the canon-married my paternal grandfather & grandmother in St Peters Chapel on April 19 1902. He went on to marry my great aunt-Mary Ann Kavanagh to Daniel Kavanagh on September 13 1915.. He also baptised my father-James McLoughlin on July 21 1903. I myself was baptised by Canon Nolan on March 5 1929. Canon Nolan died sometime in the 1930's - we school kids had to stand on Middlesbrough Road following the requiem mass in St Peters South bank.
Another enquiry I would like to make is:- I have been looking at the photograph of Mr & Mrs Dooley-I now just wonder if this Dooley was the brother of Kitty Dooley-her being a ticket agent around Grangetown & South Bank...Kitty always done her rounds-that is-collecting the moneys in her car-I think it may have been a Ford. Kitty's other sister kept an "off licence" on Lorne Tce., South Bank. You will recall that the organist at St Marys was the late John Potter. I also believe that one of the Kirkbrights girls also played the organ in that church.?
I was born in 48 Wood St., my grandmother's house and moved to South Bank when I was two. My father was born in Vaughan St. I have a foot in both camps. My father was a raconteur and had wonderful tales of Grangetown, most of which I still remember, Ged also has many stories and we have spoken of putting them together...but...The story of Bendrict and Micky Traynor has a post script. My father reckoned that Bendrict was prosecuted and taken before the magistrate, the constable gave evidence that he identified the coal as belonging to Bolckow Vaughan to which Bendrict replied, " You very clever policeman, Bolckow's coal is black, everybody else's is white." Case dismissed.
The tales I heard as a boy involved "Jimmy the Whoop" another story about Bendrict (spelling?), the half back line of Spit, Dot and Crack, Nathan, "The Cock Duck Lenaghan" etc. The drunk who woke up dead and tragic tales also.
Cardboard City! Well that name goes back a long way. I remember it as a boy, it's got nothing to do with pre-fabs, I can't see any objection to it myself.
Dick Fawcett of Slaggy Island
Great stuff, Johnny! Loved the story of The Day Trip but I was left wondering what happened next!
The story of the coal reminds me of a tale I heard when I worked at Dorman's Cleveland works in the 60's concerning a Grangetown lad named Rooney (I can't remember his first name).
He had climbed over the Dorman's fence on Eston Road and filled a sack with coal from one of the wagons in the sidings. When walking home with it he was chased by a bobby who was gaining on him so he dropped the bag of coal and ran on. The bobby still caught him as he ran out of puff and he was taken back to the dumped sack of coal. The bobby told him to pick it up and carry it back to the Police Station as evidence. I leave you to imagine what Rooney told the copper he could do with the coal. After a lengthy argument the bobby told Rooney to clear off which he did.
However, after standing a while pondering what to do next, the bobby walked away and a short time later Rooney retrieved the coal and carried on home with it!
I was just looking at your first email to me and you mentioned pics of the Vic, Nelson Street and the Peters without the clock?...
Also I was looking at your photo of the Branch End - where was the "pub in the works"? My wife's Grandfather was a Grangetown blast furnaceman called Ned Soloman who was a twenty pint-a-day man and they were allowed to go into that pub when they had finished tapping the furnace and were soaked with sweat.
Cheers for now,
Craig Hornby - professional film-maker
Great stuff John -
most inspiring to see a man of such mature years getting to grips with 21st century technology!
Watch out on my site in coming weeks for streaming video trailer' of 'E2' as
it is known to those in the know...
Kennedys in York say the sites are great !!
I went to school with your brother Frank and he emailed me a couple of days ago with details of the web site. I am just writing to say how much we have enjoyed, both the Grangetown and South Bank sites; we being me and my Dad. You perhaps know my dad, Bernard Kennedy, he lives on Normanby Road, at the posh end now, 467, opposite Tinkers' Alley, though I was brought up in 235, just by Poplar Grove. He, of course, knows you, where you live and all of your relations; he was at the recent "do" for Jimmy Rooney in Normanby.
He has spent the last two days glued to the computer, not bad for a 77 year old though he did have to get an extra cushion for comfort. He is interested in local history and has read quite widely about the area and especially the steel works/Bolckow and Vaughan, I think he is well informed though I'm sure he would not be so presumptious to say so; he also has a fantastic memory about all the people and various families, knowing precisely who is related to whom. (He was brought up by Barney and Elsie Kennedy after his own mother died and so his 'brothers and sister' were Tony, Thelma, Ted and Ron)
He spends most of his time these days here in York where I live with my two daughters. We will be away in August so he will probably be back in Normanby soon, if only to go to the post office for the pension and stock up on tax free Golden Virginia.
Great Site..but don't forget Twig Short ?..Corns Liz
Hi - great site. A lot of it is before my time - I'm pleased to say!! Look forward to seeing the site grow.
Just a quick note about World War 1 Recruits. You have perhaps forgotten the most famous WW1 grangetown recruit, William Short, who received the VC. His memorial was in Grangetown Square for years and is now in Eston Cemetery. His medal & citation is in the Green Howards Museum in Richmond & his hat/photos/details are in the Imperial War Museum in London.
You are quite right friend..William Short of Vaughan Street is the hero everyone remembers..and I was on the point of snapping the memorial for the site..but the weather here has been very dull lately!
THANKS FOR REMINDING US !
Aug 7th 02 Look at WW1 page again readers-it's all there - thanks to the Green Howards Website !
Did you know that my grandfather was arrested as a young man? The police were having trouble sorting out a fracas and called upon him: "Charles McCarthy, assist us in the Queen's name" (Victoria, of course.) He refused.
Oddly enough he was apparently a gentle and law abiding man. Wounded in WWI, France and Salonika - where he got malaria - the curate, Fr. McCarthy(? - no relation) used to sit with him during his bouts.
Just had an e mail from Ellen (Thomas) in Chicago. Ellen is the daughter of Dai and Mary Ellen nee Welsh - born about 1933 in the US. Of all the US relatives she is the one who keeps most in touch about Grangetown. Says she has had a lot of fun with the web site. She wishes to pass on the web address to her US cousins - the Quinns.
The Quinns went out to the US at the same time. They lived in Grangetown - I have photos of young Joe Thomas and Jack Quinn on the doorstep of 98 Holden.
Send them in Jim !
A 1920's Emigrant from Bessemer St to Canada & USA
photo - Sheila Barker
Young Pat Burke of Bessemer street on the left with Albert Barnes on their way to a new life in Canada in the late 1920's. Later they settled in the U. S. A.
I wasn't sure where to include this fantastic snap from Sheila Barker, but this is a page for those abroad - perhaps relatives abroad will respond!
|photo and info - Sheila Barker
Two Grangetown ladies in the U.S.A
George Clarke with on the left his wife Emma ( nee Wilson ) of Staplyton street
On the right Mary Wilson ( nee Burke ) of Bessemer street
"no relation but very good friends"
Bede Hickey and family - Ontario
Bede Hickey writes from Ontario
Bede Hickey an ex-Grangetowner enjoyed the travellling back in time and wants anyone who can remember him to drop him a line.....
See Guestbook for email address link.
It was great receiving your note, brought back a lot of old memories, I went digging through the albums and now I have beside me, two photos which survived time, taken in Blackpool, of the gang, one of them we all have roller scates on and Brian was with us. Dad used to mention Kevin in his letter and also the odd times he ran into Paul Fox. I can't send the photo's yet as we have just got started with this lot and need the scanner attaching. Vin the schoolteacher and Mary were married the same time as Angela and I, Christmas 1962. Jim the roll turner and Eugene the joiner disappeared off the scene Melda was the pretty one of the family. I remember you and your family lived in the posh end of town between Bolckow Rd and the Trunk Rd. We lived in Stapylton St. Joe Mullen I heard, was in South Africa, Paul Fox's sister Jean was in Grimsby.
We don't know how Marian found out about cardboard city, we will ask her and let you know. Marian's maiden name was Cox, native of South Bank, she married Angela's brother Derek Ray who lost his life to a lorry accident, Her second husband was Bill Kirsop.
Angela was born and raised in North Ormesby, and would love to contact with her old friends.
Seeing as you are the editor of Grangetown in Times past, could you please correct the mistakes and the double entry in the guest book, we were just trying to put in our e mail address when it came back incorrect, as mentioned we have only been doing this a week. Used computers for business for the past 14 years, but never got around to having the time for the internet. Yours was the first contact with it. Anyway we sold our business, a holiday resort a couple of months ago and are now retired, or trying to be everyone keeps offering us work.
We had a look at Slaggyisland and read one good joke about a mermaid and will look forward to reading more. This is a great thing you have going, especially for us long lost souls, is there a North Ormesby one, probably called Doggie.
Yes I was a draughtsman right up until a sixteen years ago, then I worked in Nuclear Power building, then into the tourism business when Angela went out and bought the business and totally changed our lives, for the better. Now we potter around playing in the waterfall which runs in our back garden, we have been very fortunate.
Think we have covered your questions. Please remember to edit the mistake in the guest book.
Bye for now
Bede and Angela
Ursula Bear Hickey from Ontario
Ursula wrote and told me that she was intending to visit relatives in England in the Autumn...and goes on to say ..
The itinerary is based upon where my relatives live. My Great Uncle Frank Hickey, who is now 87, lives in Bishop Auckland. I also have a Great Uncle Dick who lives in 'another' Auckland (I can't remember the name) who just turned 90. They still get together and play violin and cello.
As promised, I have attached some photos for you:
The first two are of my Dad about 10 years ago. He's with his grandchildren.
The next two are of my Dad's dad (closest to you -no longer with us) and his brother, my great Uncle Frank who lives in Bishop Auckland. They were visiting us here in Canada in the summer. The temperatures were in the 30's C. As you can see, they are in full suits and ties. Those crazy brits.
The next one is of my Dad and I at Christmas about 5 years ago. We are singing a Christmas carol into the telephone. I think we may have had a few pints!
The last one is of me at my absolute finest about two years ago.
I hope you enjoy them ... Ursula
I was actually born in Grangetown and lived there for the first 6 months of my life. We left England when I was 8 so I can appreciate some of the accent. I have a mixed accent -- mostly Canadian but the English creeps in every now and then. I keep in touch with a lot of my family in England so I hear the accent quite a bit.
I am actually planning a trip to Penrith, Kirkby Stephen, Grangetown, Bishop Auckland, Redcar and Middlesbrough sometime in Sept. or Oct.
I will send you a few photos of my Dad so you can see how he has aged. He is quite a character and well loved by many. Dad and I are two peas in a pod. The slightly irregular discoloured ones that most people toss out, but two peas nonetheless.
Last weekend, I met a couple from 'cardboardcity'. Their names are Dennis and Joyce Teasdale. Dennis is 76 but looks about 56. They were very impressed with my Dunn Clipper hat. I sent them the link to your web-site and to 'slaggyisland' so hopefully, they will find some 'old' friends there too.
Elaine Meadows from Yarm
Thanks for the mail,Remember Lit`s well,and Mrs Davison whose shop it was before Lit`s took over,I was always waiting for Lit`s to open on Sunday night,when my late Dad took us to buy our Sunday night sweets!,I still havent finished reading all the other pages yet,as I am busy with the reunion.
I would be most interested in the postcard Pics,and would love a copy for my photograph album which I am doing for my Grandchildren.My friend in Sunderland is having trouble sending on line the footballer,so he`s putting it on a disc,and I will send it to you with the other photo,by the way the allotments behind Cresswell Road were called Mushroom Grove.
Also my friend in Scotland who lived in Stapylton Street,(she loves the site) has been in touch with her Aunt in her 70`s and shes writing down for you ,some other characters of the streets which you have/haven`t mentioned,but might have the info anyway, so I`ll get back to you on that when it comes.
You can see Elaine's photo of Dalton's shop taken in the late twenties in "Shops and Shopkeepers"
Eugene McElvaney - Melbourne Australia
My wife was right about our Aunt Ellen being born in 1903 and she could not be the Ellen in the photo. So, The girl must have been either of my dad's cousins Mary or another Ellen both born in 1910. The trouble is, that I'm sure the McElvaneys' used cloning before Dolly the sheep was thought of, because they all look a like. Regarding the story of the stabbing, it was obviously a cousin. According to my records, my grandfather Henry had five brothers who would have been in their twenties around 1900. I expect it was one of them, but I haven't heard any family tales about it. Pity the story didn't give first names. My grandfather's wife was called Isabella Jackson, so I don't know about any Reegans belonging to our family, but I'll try to trace her through Middlesbrough Indexes. Wendy the girl who runs the services is very helpful and it was her who told us about our Aunt Ellen. Grangetown appears to be a tough place to live at the turn of the century. I think to survive there you had to be either a good fighter, a good runner or someone who told good jokes. Now I understand where my sense of humour comes from!!!! Thanks for the cutting, that's another item of family history for the storybook.
Good luck. Eugene
You are a Sherlock Holmes. In 1900 in Middlesbrough, John McElvaney married Kate Regan. To the best of my knowledge, it would appear to have been my great uncle John who was stabbed. They must have ran away to the Boro to get married, so the story has a happy ending. On another matter my Uncle Henry used to tell me stories about a cousin called "The Count". Apparently he used to be always dresses immaculately. Does any of your readers know of him or his reputation? Good luck, Eugene
The information on the spreadsheet you sent is terrific. I see the Jim McElvaney you mentioned was born in 1908, my father also Jim was born in 1912. How tragic, dying giving birth to twin boys like that. Jim's whole world must have caved in on him. I couldn't imagine what I would be like in the same circumstances. Thank God there were good people around like your grandmother and Maggie Dooley, who where there to help those poor kids.
I would put that newspaper cutting regarding the stabbing on your website. It has a touch of the Romeo and Juliet about it. I don't think the descendants would mind. In fact, I think they would be quite touched by the story.
Thanks again. Eugene
The Romeo McElvaney John, who married Kate Regan was nicknamed 'Dadda' McElvaney and had a lot of children according to Kathy Cave. They lived in Laing Street and were a respectable family but she also said there were 6 McElvaney families in Grangetown and only 2 were related to each other:- The 'Count' in Bessemer, 1 in Vaughan, 1 in Wood, 1 in Cheetham, 1 in Broadway later - Joe father of Mary ,Joe and Bernard. I wish I'd taped it. Kath has an extraordinary memory and leaps off at various tangents - as you would if you were talking about the McElvaneys. Kath Percival (nee Cave) was daughter of Nora Cave of Laing Street.
I have enjoyed both sites very much, what a great idea! News is spreading quickly. Both sites interest me because I was born in Laing St GT moved to SB when I was 5 and back to GT when I was 11. I was fascinated by the input from E Mc Elvaney. I am the granddaughter ( Maureen ) of the Romeo/Juliet couple J Mc Elvaney and Kate Reegan. We knew nothing about it. Cath Caves input was correct. John and Kate Mc had 11 ( I believe) children, my mother Ellen Mary being the youngest. Unfortunately she passed away Sept 2002. The only surviving child is Jonny who still lives in M'bro. I have a photo of ( Kate ) taken in 1951 at the age of 68 - enclosed. Unfortunately I have no photo of John or Dada as he was known. I know he came over from somewhere in Ireland. He passed away in 1959 and Kate in 1957. Anymore input would be great. See Picture "grandma kate copy"
Another piece of info for Eugene or the site - Re-Dominic Mc Elvaney - killed in action in world war 2. Enclosed is a photo of his headstone taken in Tobruk war cemetery. I lived in Tobruk on a married status job with my husband. I thought you may be interested to know the grave is well cared for and that every year a service takes place to remember the servicemen killed in action. I don't know why I made enquiries - call it a feeling - but when I found a Mc Elvaney from the North Riding of England, my curiosity got the better of me. I think we must be related somehow Eugene eh!!! Anyway we took the enclosed photo of the head stone. Spot the McElvaney look alike ( me ) You were right about the cloning too, you can spot a Mc Elvaney from a mile away.
It was great to put a face to the man whose grave we visited regulary for 7 years just because he had my mothers maiden name Mc Elvaney and could have been related in some way. What a sentimental lot we are!!!!! See picture "D.A. MC ELVANEY copy"
Eugene - if you think we are related in anyway or have any info about my Mc Elvaney connection I would love to hear from you- John has my e mail address.
Please feel free to give this email address to Eugene.
Kate McElvaney [Regan] aged 68
|"The Count" by Ged O'Neill
Hi Eugene McElvaney
I've just finished writing a piece on Grangetown hierarchy as I saw it. I had occasion to quote "The Count" as an example of a great character who refused to be put down by anyone. My father, Big Pat O'Neill had a smile on his face every time his name was mentioned.
In those depression days of the 30's we had a certain person in our town that was nicknamed " The Count" Anyone less like a titled individual it would be hard to envisage, unless one took note of his shirt cuffs, which always protruded at least two inches below the rather worn shiny sleeves of a pin striped suit that had seen much better days. Those were the days when his Father had first worn it. He had died some ten years previously and the 'Count' felt duty bound to carry on his father's tradition of not being seen anywhere without it. His shoes were of the long pointed variety .I could only marvel at the toe compression required to put them on and the utter pain and discomfort that I imagined he must have been going through while mincing through the streets.
Those shoes were all the rage among the young men of a certain means in those far off days. My older cousin acquired a pair as soon as he saved up enough from his first year's wages at the steelworks. The 'Count' was looked upon with certain amount of amusement but most of all with amazement and envy by the rest of the male populace. Envy, because of his fashionable appearance when he paraded down Whitworth Rd his collared shirt decorated with resplendently hued tie and all topped off with a rakish trilby: and amazement because, as the saying goes he had 'No visible means of support' Furthermore, he had a family of children like the 'Old Woman in the Shoe' He it was who, when asked about the difficulties of bedding down all of his brood in such a small establishment as his own, produced the legendary answer that there was no problem at all. He simply put them to bed two at a time and when they were asleep he took them out and stood them up against the wall!
Be that as it may, the 'Count' considered himself to be among the higher strata of our small town society. Even in those poverty stricken days of depression there was a hierarchy in our small-impoverished town as in the best London society .
Our family experienced that in many ways. The fact of living in one of the meaner street dwellings with very few amenities put us apart from the few families who had that extra bedroom or one of the fIrst basic bathrooms. Then again the house principal's job situation made a great deal of difference. Our town had a great social mix within a small geographical area. Most of the better class dwellings housed the foremen, the Rollturners, Sample Passers, Blast Furnacemen and small businessmen, allowing allegiance to the omnipresent and dominant steelworks physically overlooking all of our lives. Many of the small traders lived on their own numerous shop premises that existed on Whitworth Road - the main shopping thoroughfare that cut through the town from north to south.
It was not the only source of trade and traders for every street had its own small shop outlets and on Bolckow Rd, the main road through the town there were many further outlets. All of those business premises housed a family, set apart from the main hoi polloi.
I noticed the difference in my own circumstances compared to others at a very early age. Those other individual boys belonging to those more professional families brought mid-morning snacks to school. The soles of their new footwear were not imprinted with segs before they wore them for the fIrst time, to ensure longer life. They wore jackets instead of gansies and in winter an overcoat to withstand the cold. Our apology to winter was a scarf wrapped around the neck with the surplus crossed over at the front and fastened at the back with a safety pin. Underpants were non-existent in those sparse days as were vests.Socks were darned and "better" darned with as near a wool match as possible. My mother was the most incompetent of darners and I never ever saw a pair of knitting needles in her hands.
It's a pity there's no photo of the Count - perhaps there is...Anyone got one? Ed.
George Ayton of South Shields
Thank you for the speedy reply, the photographs that I am most interested in are the one of Vickers Street in 1911 and of Wood Street 1911, I can accept attachments.
As my father, George Albert Ayton, was born in Grangetown in 1919 and I visited on a regular basis as a boy and still do on occasion (not that there's much to see of old Grangetown) I am interested in that part of the country. I was born in South Shields, my father joined the Royal Scots in WWII (he thought that it might be safer bet than the Green Howards) and was billeted in South Shields where he met my mother.
I am also researching my family history and briefly, my greatgrandfather came to Teesside from Gissing, Norfolk. He settled at Warrenby and married a girl at Christ Church Coatham, her name was Charlotte Tann, also from Norfolk. She had a son at the time by the name of Edward. Edward died (aged 24) as a result of injuries sustained at Warrenby Ironworks in 1895, when a number of boilers exploded.
My grandfather, George William Ayton, married Maggie Buxton in 1904 and they settled in Vickers Street, Grangetown by 1909. Maggie's parents were George James Buxton (an ironstone miner at Eston) and Elizabeth Mary Buxton (nee Easton and one time caretaker of St. Matthew's Church) of 119 Wood Street, Grangetown. I have many more details which I can pass on if they are of interest.
I attach a photograph of my grandfather taken after WWI in a band (he is the one in the front with the big drum). Someone may recognise one of the faces.
Thank you again, I am delighted to have come across your web-site, keep up the good work.
See photo in WWI Section - Ed
Thank you for the photographs, they are priceless to me. The photograph that I attached yesterday was, so I was always told, taken in Grangetown. I know that my grandfather lost an eye and sustained other injuries during the course of WWI. However I think that the photograph was taken later, I will attach another photgraph of him taken in 1914 and you will see what the war did. I notice that my grandfather is wearing a different cap-badge from the rest, I'm sure his is a Green Howards badge.
For the record he and my grandmother had 11 children, 9 survived into adulthood, they were; Benjamin Ayton (Ben), Edward James Ayton (Jim), Edith Mary (Edie), Alice (Lal), Marie Roze (Marie), Robert William (Rob), George Albert (George), Betty, and the sole survivor Victoria (Vicki).
Ben and Jim were on a radio show in the 1930's in an accordian band. Betty emigrated to Australia in 1966 - her married name was Brackpool. Marie married William Barber. My father George and his brother Robert were in St. Matthews church choir when they were boys. Rob married Alma Ash who still lives in Eston and would be an asset to your site, as she has a sharp mind and a clear memory.
Victoria, who lives in Eston married Arthur Hind, all of the above had children, so I have a few cousins in the area.
As a stranger to Grangetown the things that struck me were, the smell from the works, and the hollow sound of the cobbles as I walked along Vickers Street. Also the other strange practice of getting a trolleybus (tram) to North Ormesby in order to come back again on a United bus to get to Redcar.
Thanks once again.
As an addendum to George's story about the Warrenby explosion - Sheila Barker supplies this memorial card of that tragedy - which George was very pleased to see for the first time.
I noticed also that an Edward Dooley is mentioned on the card - a name which occurs in Grangetown Baptismal Records - I wonder if he also was a Grangetown lad?
Philip Yoogle from York
I used to live in Seaview Terraces right near British Steel fence... moved York with my parent when I was three - 35 years ago. My name is Philip Gainford ..lets hear from some more Gainford's out there please.
Philip writes from York. I believe ..and said he really enjoys the site. Anyone wishing to contact him can access is e-mail address from the Guest Book or through the site address.
There are Gainfords around here ...because I rang a family when I was researching my family tree to enquire about their origins..but they were English Gainfords..mine were Irish and created by English Overlords in County Monaghan who wanted to differentiate between four FORD families working in the flaxen industry over there.
John Richards reminisces..........
I grew up in Normanby and South Bank 1946-65. Grangetown was always off-limits - a walled city from which there was no escape for a young stranger - or so I thought! Your descriptions of life in the 19th Century kind of confirms the irrational fears of my youth!
My father, Rees Richards, worked at Cleveland House when it was Council Offices during the 50's up to the time they built the new offices in Teesville East [around 1960 I think?] I used to visit occasionally and remember the place being full of model ships, trains etc presumably a legacy from Smith's Dock and the other engineering works.
My great-grandmother lived at Clay Lane before it was demolished and then in Cromwell Road where my grandfather and father grew up. Grandfather was Richard Richards and the maintenance engineer at Dorman's during the 20-40's - a rough time and one which caused and early death in 1950. He ended up at Lyndhurst, opposite the Library where I lived briefly 1950-3. We then moved to Ravensworth Avenue where my parents stayed til 1972. They moved to Ruswarp and my father died in 1978 of emphysema brought on by too much smoking and probably too much gas fumes from the coke ovens next door to CH!
My mother, Norah Richards, lived a little longer.
She was leader of South Bank Girls Club and a good friend of Charlie Smailes who ran Grangetown Boys Club. I remember it being famous for its boxing and - rather strangely in those days - drama. Both activities achieved national acclaim and I remember seeing a famous production of The Long, the Short and The Tall sometime in the 60's
I used to travel to Youth Club events in the early 60's and I remember going to Sheffield once with a very large lad from Grangetown who was a bouncer in his spare time. A famous politician addressed the assembled throng [can't remember his name] and Bob[??] was so impressed he collared the guy in the bar later [must have been 64/5], hit it off and they got drunk together! Bob returned a much wiser bouncer..!
Oh, and I went to school with Bryan Jones who's father was Sergeant at the Police Station in the 60's.
I wonder if anybody else has memories of the same times?
all the best,
My great grandfather John Manix is highlighted in one of the early stories on Grangetown - as one of thise caught up in a fracas near Cleveland House in fact - and he was a very respectable gentleman indeed - Even the reporters in those days enjoyed engendering media hype articles - but we all enjoy them don't we?
Keith Watson..of all people
5 September 2002
Fancy Keith Watson writing in the Guest Book after all these years - the only lad with a decent bike in the street who got me an invite to Maureen Duffy’s party or was it Barry Garside’s and ....Georgie Duffy who had the best/only size 5 football in the street but only let us play with it for five minutes in case it got dirty....what memories Keith...the shelter in the back arch...Billy Bighead...from Wood Street.and the games of Leevo..I’m amazed at the places we hid ...where there wasn’t a tree or a blade of grass to be seen ......tell a lie....there were weeds ...growing through the railings of Dormans spiky fence near Reuben Turner’s coal yard and a patch of lovely waste ground with quite a deep pond with floating logs ( railway sleepers ) in it where you could drown on a good day..and where someone did I was told..or was that the Blue Lagoon...? and Albie Norman and I read Beanos on the backstep - which were absolute mint condition then and dated before the war.....and the Wizard where Limp Along Leslie scored magnificent curling Beckam goals from 60 yards and Wilson ran a mile in three minutes in a pair of black long johns...amazing...and Horace Millington and June and Grouty the street leader who taught everyone how to make gatties ( catapults ) and who seemed to have a secret discount trade with the second-hand shop dealer because it was inundated with orders for thick rubber elastic to wind around the Y shaped pieces of sawn off branch...mam can I borrow the bread knife?....and ....Who NICKED our scooter?...........
Tony Martin of Canada
Hi John, remember me,Tony Martin.My nephew Eugene Purvis sent me your website and what a great surprise to find that an old school pal of mine was running it.I have been in touch with another old pal of ours Gordon Farrell and am still looking for more.
My wife and I emigrated to Canada in 1975 with our two sons Conrad ,and Darren.It sure is nice to be able to look back at old Grangetown the way it used to be .We had lots of good times without getting into any real trouble, not like the youth of today, I feel very sorry for them, no future at all.Well John I will sign off now looking forward to hearing from you, All the best Tony Martin.
John Flemming of South Africa
As a proud Grangetown lad, I am fascinated by your site and what memories it brought back.
Although I was born in Liverpool, in 1946, my dad having married a 'scouse' girl, we moved to Grangetown when I was 3 months old and lived with my grandmother, in Holden St, waiting for the pre-fabs in Dalton Rd to be completed. My dad being Grangetown born and bred, had his name on the waiting list as the war ended and our family were one of the original Cardboard City residents. In 1953, we moved to Shaw Crescent into a 'brick' house where my mam and dad lived until they passed away, my dad in 1993 and my mam in 1998.
When I got married in 1966, to Maureen France, a Grangetown girl (of course) we lived in Redcar for one year before 'coming home' and buying a house in Cheetham St, where we stayed until they were condemned in 1970. It was then to Normanby and after 2 years, over the hills, to Guisborough.
I went to St Marys Infants and the Farm School and then, having passed the 11+ went to St Marys College. After leaving school, I worked at Cleveland Works then Lackenby, before emigrating to South Africa in 1974.
Grangetown was a fabulous place in which to spend ones formative years and helped build strong characters. Most of us turned out to be solid and stable citizens, which I attribute to our Cardboard City upbringing.
Am attaching a contribution for the St Marys School page, as a Word document, which I hope you can use. If you need it in another format, please let me know and I'll do my best to fix it.
Please keep up the good work.
Am still in SA, living close to Johannesburg International Airport.
Was introduced to the site, by another Grangetown lad, John Stubbs, who lives in Witbank, about 135 km east of Jo'burg. He celebrated his 60th, a couple of weeks ago and I went through for the party. While reminiscing about Grangetown, which we do everytime we meet, he told me about his fantastic discovery of a site dedicated to the town.
You will probably know him, being roughly the same age. He lived in Bessemer St and went to the Peter's.
Myself, I'm only a youngster, starting at the College, in 1957!!
My wife, who, incidentally, is visiting her mam in Eston, now, is Sid Frances' niece. She was brought-up in Vaughan St.
We have a signed copy of "Clean Steps and White Pinnies" which Sid had given to my dad. The cover photo, by some strange coincidence, is my dad's Aunt Kate holding his cousin, Lawrence Lane. It would appear that Sid didn't realise the significance of the photo, in that, it related to our family.
Will re-scan the Farm School photo, at a better definition, in the next day or two.
John McNicholls of the U.S.A
I have been trying to trace my grandmothers birthplace. None of my
"Grangetown" cousins can remember where she came from. She was from
County Armagh, Ulster, of that there is no question. The town is the
problem. Is there any one you might know that can help identify what
town she came from? She was Mary Kenny and married James McNicholas in
1885 in Grangetown. I have her marriage certificate, but it only
indicates her fathers name (Patrick) and that she was from Ireland.
All this would be so simple had I started to get this information while
dad was alive. When my wife and I came back to Grangetown in 1999 it
was so sad to see it gone. I'm glad I saw it in 1958.
Your web site is terrific! It brings back memories of when I was there
in 1958 and stayed at my aunts house at 90 Holden Street. (Alice
Johnny Stubbs of South Africa
Wonderful surprise to hear from you after all these years. Thank you for your Birthday Greeting, although I prefer to bookmark it as 53 plus! It's a question of attitude, 60 seems over the hill. I console myself with the thought, once over the hill you begin to pick up some speed.
The mad Penrith trip, yes I remember it, I know we didn't show a clean pair of heels to the rest of the teams, but where we really last to arrive?
Second thoughts you may be right the fires were lit, the tins of beans were ready to eat. Heavily smoked by the open fire "Smoked baked beans" that's a new variety for Heinz. Our culinary skills at that time were not too well developed.
Visiting the Cardboard City website I experienced a touch of nostalgia and excitement - the nostalgia stemming from the fact that I consider myself fortunate to have lived there during the early years - and the excitement to be able to recall and relive those times, living in a close knit wonderful predominantly Irish Catholic community. With a name like "Stubbs" I did feel a little strange, but I claimed membership from my mother's side of the family her maiden name was "Conway".
Thanks John for devoting your time and energy in creating and developing the site, it is very much appreciated and enjoyed by all us "Old Grangetown Boys".
I am a little bit out of touch with your family John, perhaps when you have a little more time you can bring me up to speed about them and any other mutual friends which you have managed to remain in touch with over the years.
Best wishes to you, regards to your family and old friends and more power to your pen John for the future expansion of a great website.
Request for site photograph
I work for the Food Standards Agency and have been researching material on the internet for a lecture that our Chairman, Sir John Krebs, is giving next week (The St. Andrew's Prize Lecture at the Royal Institution, London
W1, on 31 October).
I would like to ask if you will give permission for Sir John to use one of the photographs that appear on your website as an illustration to accompany part of the lecture. The photograph in question is Michael Traynor in British Army uniform on the following web page
I apologise for having to ask for a quick response but this is necessary due to the limited time remaining for lecture preparation.
Your assistance would be much appreciated and I look forward to hearing from you.
Special Advisor to the Chairman and Deputy Chair
Food Standards Agency
Rm 620 Aviation House
Tel: 020 7276 8663
Many thanks for permission to use the photograph -it is much appreciated.
Sir John likes to use strong visual images as part of his lectures. You probably won't be surprised to hear - from the Chairman of the FSA -that the subject of his St. Andrew's lecture is food! Sir John will be giving a
few 'snapshots' of what food production in Britain was like at various times in our past. He will mention the late Victorian era, around the time of the Boer War, when very many people in this Country were malnourished. So much so, that 40% of Boer War recruits were rejected on phsical grounds - hence the relevance of the Boer War. Searching for a suitable image related to 'Boer War recruits' for this part of the lecture I found your web site and the picture of your Grandfather in uniform from that era is
ideal. In fact, I have been able to find very few British Boer War sites and pictures - most appear to be South African, Canadian or Australian and
are not directly relevant.
Frank & Pauline Havelock - Canada
Loved your website. Found it very interesting and entertaining. Not much mention yet of all the swarf that you used to produce at D&L. I guess information on the YCW at Dicky Dye's (the bookie) place Holden Street ?? Will come up at some future date. Must be forty years since we last met. Hope Brian, Tichy and ????(other brother) are well.
JaneBellas (nee Havelock) sent us the Radio Cleveland programme tape on Grangetown on which you were featured.
We came to Canada in 1966 after much travelling around Canada, we have finally settled in Vancouver, B.C. and enjoying a similar climate to the U.K.
Have only one photograph rom YCW days just tipsy Teesiders delegates at Dunkirk
Look forward to seeing more information on your website - good luck and say hi to Vin and Mary Fox
Pauline and Frank Havelock
Ruth Starr of New Zealand & The Sleight Family
My name is Ruth Starr (nee Sleight), and my daughter found the web page for North East Communigate , when she put Sleight Lincolnshire in the Search Engine, she is compiling a family tree for her Dad and I, and lo and behold on that web site was a photo of the Sleight family 1890. The 18yr old son in the photograph is my Grandfather, she emailed me the web site, and we are so thrilled about it, what I am trying to find out is who sent you the photograph? None of my sisters know about it or have seen it, unfortunately we were not close to my Dad's side of the family, so there will more than likely be someone who has quite q few memento's.
I am the eldest daughter (of four) of Robert Henry Sleight the second son (born 31st May 1901) of the young chap (Arthur in that photograph), Dad did his apprenticeship as a Caulker in Smith Dock, then left the area, travelling all over the country, ending up in Falmouth approx:1930, met my Mother whom he married October 1931 and I was born 9th February 1933. I emigrated to NZ in June 1959 with three children to join my husband who had enlisted in the RNZN in October 1958, we had two more children in NZ, one in 1965 who is now living in London with her husband and another in 1969 who is now living in the USA with his wife.
We would be delighted to hear from anyone who has any information on either that photograph or anything else that would be of interest to us, I was given this web site address by the Editor of Communigate, Rupert Francis, both he and the staff have been very helpful, and prompt with their replies.
Regards Ruth Starr and family
Who says 13 is an unlucky number, obviously not for this side of the family, I am absolutely delighted to be in touch, and to be able to write to another member of the family, thank you very much for the information, and offer of photographs I would love to have copies.
As I said in my first email we did not keep in touch with Dad's side of the family by the time we came out to NZ, although one of my Aunt's (Jock's wife) did write to me for a year or so after my youngest sister Susan died, on behalf of Aunty Molly, who was by that time in a Nursing home in Redcar. My second sister Judith, who lives in Auckland NZ, and travelled back to UK on several occasions, did go up to Yorkshire to meet Uncle George, and his son Kenneth, and to see Molly, but that was quite a long time ago. Pamela my second sister is living with her husband and family in Crawley in Sussex, and used to visit Molly on a regular basis, and who, when Molly died, received all the family photographs she had been taking care of, but none going back as far as the ones you obviously have.
I had met all but Uncle George over the years, and had been quite close to Molly when I was a young girl,she was in New Delhi and Poona (India) during the 1939-45 war as a Queen Alexandria Nursing sister in the Army, and we corresponded over several years. I went up to Leicester when I was 16yrs old to stay with Beth and her husband, Les Spencer, Molly was also living with them at the time. I met Arthur in 1939, just before war was declared, when I went up on holiday with my Mother to stay for a couple of weeks, he was then living in Croydon, and Jock came to see us when he was in the Army sometime in the middle of the war years, but I cannot remember when. Unfortunately Dad was never a letter writer, and if it had not been for them keeping in touch with him we would not have seen any of them, I do recall my Grandparents coming to Falmouth with Beth, and Kenneth (George's son, who is a year older than me) on a holiday, again before the war.
My youngest daughter Ann lives in London, and has been having a wonderful time tracking down rellies from the past, and compiling a family tree for both sides of the family, has been in touch with folk from Australia, USA, and several different parts of UK with the Starr side, going back to 1700. To actually be able to be in touch with someone who has the same relationship to the Sleight's is great, actually I never got as far as the email on page after getting as far as the Sleight portrait, I was so excited I emailed the Feedback site which is at the top of the page. Ann has got all the birth, wedding and death certificates, including John Sleight and Charlotte Cook, my Dad always used to say we were related to Captain Cook of discovering NZ fame (well before we even dreamt of coming out here). But Dad was a great story teller, and we were never sure if he was telling the truth or not, and he wasn't with that one, it sounded good to us as kids though.
Thank you so much for getting in touch I shall always be very grateful, being a Grandmother and Great Grandmother myself, I realise what we as children missed, not being in touch with extended family, and in a way this is helping to put that right, I have forwarded your email to Ann. Please don't be surprised if you hear from her, she will be as thrilled as we are to get this message, the website is fantastic, I really cannot get over how quickly the information has come through, isn't email wonderful?
Very Best Regards
Kevin Murphy of the USA
Dear Mr. O'Neill,
I happened upon your site during a search for links to information about my father's family, which had come from the Grangetown/Southbank/Middlesborough region. I knew that Grangetown had been important in Dad's life, but I am not sure of his place(s) of residence. Then, I came across two separate references to a boyhood friend of his, one Dai Thomas, and felt certain that Grangetown must have been his home. As a child, circa early WWII, I met Mr. Thomas and his family when my Dad took us to visit them on Chicago's south side, quite a distance to travel in those days of public, not private, transportation.
I have been trying, with little success, to gain information about my family's history in Yorkshire, and your site is the only one that has given me any hope. I know that my father, Joseph Murphy, played soccer during his youth, as did Mr. Thomas. (Their teams played against each other at least once while my Dad and Mr. Thomas were active with those teams.) Like Mr. Thomas, my Dad (and his brother, John), served during WWI and Dad stayed in Germany, I believe, with an occupation force, until a year or two after the war's end. My Dad's brother, James, worked in the steel industry (Lackenby Works??), during the war. My grandfather, James Murphy was, I believe, a union representative during his working years. My father, Uncle John, grandfather and grandmother, Ann (nee Ruddy), and Aunt Catherine, all emigrated to the United States during the 1920's, where they lived the rest of their lives (like Mr. Thomas, in Chicago).
I assume, from information unearthed today, that the men of my family all worked in the Bolckow-Vaughan steel plant(s).
I have been searching for several years (not constantly, of course, but when time permitted) to connect with my family's early years, to no avail until today. How delightful it was to make contact, if only indirectly, with that past. How great that Mr. Thomas showed up on your site.
Thank you for your work in making Grangetown's history available to interested parties worldwide.
Kevin P. Murphy
Author, "Degrees of Murder:" http://www.booklocker.com/bookpages/kevinmurphy01.html
"Something Bright and Alien:" http:www.booklocker.com/bookpages/kevinmurphy02.html
"This time, this place . . .
that's all there ever is" -- kpm, 1971
Isolde O'Neill of Melbourne
Thought you might be interested in this article which was shown in a local
Kathleen (Ginty) and I's story is supposed to be in a Melbourne paper soon -so I will send you that when it happens.
Kathleen (born in Grangetown) was able to tell me that she and I were married in the St. Mary's Church - on the same day - but an hour before me.
How about that then???!!!!
Hope you are all well and happy.
Bye for now xx Isolde (O'Neill)
A Message from Whitley Bay
Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed your website. I've been tracing my family tree and I came across your site when looking for information about Grangetown because I believe my grandmother was born there. I think I've traced her on the 1901 census, but am trying to confirm that I've got the right family...........strangely, her father is listed as John O'Neill so it was quite a surprise to see your name on the website! Not that I'm suggesting you were her father :-) ......particularly as she was born in about 1883! But, you never know if there's some connection or other. I'm about to send for her marriage certificate to confirm one way or the other.
... just discovered that Helen O'Neill married James Loughran in Middlesbrough in 1909.
I copied this line from some baptisms I have and the missing letters would suggest Loughran - Don't you agree?
So Helen Anne O'Neill was baptised here in Grangetown with her Godparents named as Brennan. I wonder where she was actually living?
You will find out - or I will.
26/01/88 28/01/88 O'NEILL Helen Ann O'Neill Gtown John + MaryAnn (Browne ) Patrick Brennan+ Elizabeth Brennan marr James ….ughan...Mbro Feb 17 1909
Just had a look at the 1901 census and searched for Argyle with Middlesbrough, and all it came up with was Argyle Street - up to number 97 or so. There was no mention of Argyle Road so I suspect that you're right and that it wasn't built yet and that my O'Neills lived somewhere else in Middlesbrough by 1901, although they must have lived in Grangetown earlier with their daughters being born there. The plot thickens!
Do you know what year Helen O'Neill was living in Bessemer Street? I know that she married a Jim Loughran eventually, but haven't found the date yet.
I'm in Whitley Bay - about 45 miles away - and don't know Middlesbrough at all well.
As far as I know - there was no St Paul's in Grangetown ever - and no Argyle Street - but there was an Argyle Road built later in Grangetown in perhaps the twenties but No 50 seems unlikely to have been a house built in the 1900's. I think there was a St Paul's in Middlesbrough but not quite sure.
I have an Helen O'Neill who is a mystery - on my family tree - she was living in Bessemer Street - and I have often wondered if she was related to my gt gt gran Margaret O'Neill - mother of John born 1864.
How far away are you? Do you know Middlesbrough at all?
Rose O'Neill was born in Grangetown in about 1883, as was her sister 5 years later or so, but I'm not sure that the 1901 address is in Grangetown as it just says Middlesbrough. It is number 50 Argyle Street. Ecclesiastical parish of St Paul's. The family were RC. One bit bothers me about the family - the sisters are the right ages (and with no other siblings which is right), and the name of Brown for the mother in law is correct, but the younger daughter was definitely called Helen, whereas on the census her name is given as Annie. It may just be a transcribing error, but I need to get more actual facts. I'm going to send for Rose's marriage certificate for which I have details and see who her father was.
----- Original Message -----
From: John O'Neill
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: Website
What street was it in 1901? I am definitely intrigued? I might be able to help with baptisms later if I knew the full name?
Yvonne Mole of the USA
Ridsdale and Mole USA
Surfing the net and came upon your wonderful site. I always knew Grangetown would be famous one day. I attended the Alderman William Jones and Sir William Worsley Schools. My husband attended the Board School and Sir William Worsley. My husband lived on Laing Sreet and I lived on Tennyson Avenue. We were born 1945 & 1946.
We would love to hear from anyone who remembers either one of us. Cheers!!
Bill Sullivan Kalgoorlie - Australia
I'd like to attempt to write a song about Joe Terry who many of your readers/visitors etc., might have known,or know of. I'm a hell of a long way from being an accomplished musician, but I like to try to write songs.
If there is anyone knows anything of interest about Joe then I would love to hear from them. Any little snippets of information would help. Where he was born. Events of his life, and where/when he died, etc.
I grew up in Grangetown, on the Bullring in Birchy.
Phone 08 9088 6600
Fax 08 9088 6601
Mobile 0419 965 642
Janet McNeilly of Stockton
Recently came across the excellent site on the history of Grangetown and noticed several mentions of the Traynor family.
My Great Uncle Henry McNeilly married Annie Traynor in St Mary's Catholic Church Grangetown in 1902.
Henry was living at 69 Vaughan St at the time.Henry's mother, my Great Grandmother
Mary McNeilly died in Stapylton St, Eston in 1925. Do you have any more details on this family?
Linda Senior of Huddersfield
I have recently found your excellent site and have found it most helpful in filling in some background to my family history. My grandfather, Patrick Lagan, was born at 31 Stapylton Street on 10-2-1883. His father was John and his mother was Mary nee McCracken. One of his sisters was Margaret (Maggie) Donnelly, daughter Peggy, who I presume is the Peggy Donnelly in one of the photos in the Second World War section.
If anybody out there has any information on my grandfathers family I would be pleased to have it. I am also trying without success to locate a copy of Grangetown Remembered, it seems to be out of print. Any idea where I can buy one from, I don't live locally, I am in Huddersfield but any help would be appreciated. Well done on producing a brilliant site, keep up the good work.
Andrew Walsh & Family in Canada
|Andrew Walsh & Family in Canada - courtesy of Tony Walsh
Andrew paid us a visit a few months ago to obtain permission to copy a few pages from the site. Here he is in sunny Canada before a family wedding in the eighties.
MEETING UP, DOWN UNDER by Peter Fleming
Meeting with Kathleen Rudd
On a business trip to Australia late last year I met up with Kathleen Rudd (Now Kathleen Gainey) Kathleen and I were in the Class of 62 at St Peter’s, South Bank.
I was aware that Kathleen had emigrated to Australia with her family from Grangetown back in 1965. I had traveled on business to Australia on several occasions and the thought of making contact with her seemed remote. Until I joined the ‘School Friends Reunited’ web site last year and I read a note from Kathleen. In her note she mentioned that she worked in the bookshop in the international terminal of Brisbane airport. I was determined this time to make contact.
I allowed myself plenty of time to do this as I arrived in Brisbane from Sydney however, due to security restrictions I could not go through to the international terminal. My enquiries lead me to believe that there was a ‘Kathleen’ working that day in the bookshop and a lady attendant gave me the telephone number so that I could call across.
As you can imagine there was quite a shriek when she heard my voice and realised who it was calling her and that I was just a short distance away. Unfortunately we couldn’t meet up there and then so we arranged to meet the following evening.
Kathleen and her husband Doug picked me up at my hotel and took me to their home where Kathleen cooked a nice meal and we talked about old times and acquaintances.
I hope to keep in touch with Kathleen and her family from now on and who knows get the chance to see her in Australia again before long.
Bolckow Road Buddies - Colin & Donald
|Bolckow Road Buddies - Colin & Donald - courtesy of Don Smith
Colin Diggory of 32 and Don Smith of 42 Bolckow Road haven't changed a bit since they sat on the step together with their pet dog Monarch in 1961 - Colin is now a Headmaster down South and Don is working in Kosovo - pictured here in Prishtina with his new pet.
Ena Kilvington visits from California
|Ena Kilvington visits from California
Ena Kilvington (now Ena Dalton) returned to her roots in 1987 and was surprised by a grand reunion at Rooney's Fish Bar in Middlesbrough. Ena was a 'clippie' for years on the United Buses and will be recognised by many as a conductress who punched many a ticket on the familiar bus routes around the area.
She now owns a Bed & Breakfast in California USA(not Eston) named Yorkshire House and welcomes all who wish to stay.
Her friend Jean Cook on the left (formerly Thomas) and brother Al who also attended Sir Wm Worsley School Grangetown in the fifties is pictured with her enjoying the get-together in 1987.
A California Clippie
|A California Clippie|
United Bus Reunion 1987
|United Bus Reunion 1987|
Alf France of Grangetown & South Africa 1976
|Alf France of Grangetown & South Africa - courtesy of Bill Herlingshaw
A photograph taken in Newcastle Natal South Africa of Alf France born in Grangetown in 1914 - one of 4 brothers:
Sid France born 1919,
George France born 1922 and
Gerald France born 1928.
L-R: Alf France, Prince Clement of Zulus + entourage and Bill Herlingshaw in 1976
Alf went to live in South Africa after WW2 and made a name for himself as a full time Union Leader representing all races - which was unusual at the time. As soon as I set foot in Newcastle Natal, he was there to greet me and many other people from Grangetown stock. He introduced me to the next in line King of the Zulus, Prince Clement and many other prominent people in South Africa. Alf was noted for his work helping all races and when he died, he was the first white man to be cremated on a pyre. It shows how much Grangetown people made this world a better place. His niece Maureen lives in Boksburg South Africa.
Bill Herlingshaw July 2005
Clive and John in Bridgestown W.Australia 2012
|Clive and John in Bridgestown W.Australia 2012
Clive Thurston of Bessemer St and John Gibson of Eversham Road got together at Clive’s Home in Bridgetown , Western Australia, before John moves to Tasmania this month.
John is on the left as you look at the picture, Clive to the right.